Supposing He Doesn't Exist

2007-08-25 [The 5 Elements]: i just got one question...if you dont believe in the diety how can you argue against it?

2007-08-26 [Nazarath.93]: if you must know I have two reasons.
Reason 1. is because of all the evidence against God etc Im sure youve heard that before.

Reason 2. Because if I dont argue against it, then how can I learn if im right or wrong?

2007-08-27 [there's a bluebird in my heart]: Several points to address -

First, you think that because some aspects in the Bible were borrowed from other religions, that makes them untrue? For example, the name Lucifer. That is a name humans gave him. Besides, the entire story of Lucifer's fall is a parallel to the fall of humanity. God created us, gave us life and free will, we can choose to turn away from him, but we will forever be separated from him if we do. When they wrote the story of Lucifer in the Bible, they could have used the name because people would have known what it meant. It would have been a common element and something for people to relate to.

No, it's not wrong to follow God knowing the Bible is corrupt. I do not worship idols. The Bible - though it's message is holy - was created by humans, therefore it is bound to be corrupt. I worship God, not a book. There is a BIG difference. The Bible is a tool of God - it is not God, nor did it create God.

Of course the Church is corrupt! Are you blind? What institution run by man is not corrupt? That's why I don't belong to any church. Sometimes I may attend a mass, but I do not affiliate myself with Catholocism. But that doesn't make me any less of a believer in God's eyes. Man gave names to faith. God knows my heart, and if I refuse to be a part of a corrupt, ridiculous party driven by mob mentality, that doesn't change my faith in Him.

What's wrong with debating on the Internet? Yes, I apologize if I get too passionate about something while debating, but that's the same with any form of communication I choose. The Internet brings people together. It is a vast, powerful form of communication. And with debates such as these, the point is not to win. You can't win this fight. We could, after all, both be wrong. But everyone, on the Internet or in person, has a right to state their beliefs and defend them.

If you think about it, Satanism and Christianity - in their true forms - are simply two aspects of one religion. In order to work, both must accept and believe in both Satan and God. But they differ in which they follow.

You can NEVER learn if you're right or wrong until you die. That's it. We can't know. I could be wrong, you could be right. Or I could be right, and you wrong. Or, we both could be wrong. Humans lack the capability to ever comprehend the Truth, but we can try. We can have faith, and believe in something greater than ourselves. If I'm wrong, then that's going to be pretty embarassing. But I have chosen my faith. I have seen all I need to believe, and this will not alter. When I debate, I defend my faith. If you want to learn - as best you can - if you're right or wrong, spend more time considering the other person's opinion, instead of instantly telling them they're wrong. There's nothing wrong with exploring faith - or the lack thereof.

2007-08-27 [Nazarath.93]: Im not going to bother responding to all of that, just understand that satanism and christianity are 2 different religions. Satanism has NOTHING to do with christianity. go to Churchofsatan.com for more reference, or read the satanic bible.

2007-08-27 [there's a bluebird in my heart]: Are you Satanic? Or...a Satanistic...wow I've never actually had to say that word. Regardless, I think followers of Satanism - those poser kids (emos, "goths") - who say there is no God and they are Satantic are hilarious. Because they're ignorant. There is no Satan without God. That's what I was saying. God - Satan. Equality rules. Life is by nature symetrical.

Thanks for the info - I readily and happily admit I know little about Satanism - but I don't feel like ... dirtying myself is the best way to put it ... by reading that bible. I love learning about religions - Hinduism and Buddhism mostly - but only those based on love. Anything else is in my eyes humanity's sad attempt to spread hate. Misery loves company. But she can't have mine.

2007-08-27 [Nazarath.93]: My main quarrel with debating online, or anywhere is it gets nowhere. Unless you have sheepishly followed a herd into a religion and know nothing about it, then you hear someone proving you wrong and talking about another religion more appealing, but its wrong to convert. And since im not trying to convert, and you will never believe any of my arguments, tell me the point of simply talking about it until people get frustrated? The last paragraph you wrote hit the nail on the head, and also I did listen to your opinions, I enjoy doing so thats how I learn, but sometimes the only way to get the best of people's opinions out of them is trying to prove them wrong. But ive heard your argument a thousand times, and im sure I will another thousand times, thats why I hate debating online.

2007-08-28 [there's a bluebird in my heart]: True, my argument may seem redundant to you - as yours is to me - but why silence ourselves? I just feel that no matter what you believe, you should stick up for it. Otherwise your faith - whether in God or self - is pointless. No, not pointless. It doesn't matter...well it does, but not to the world. I'm not saying go out and try to convert, but if your beliefs are challenged, defend them. Even if it is redundant or silly.

But I do admit I debate too much. Not just about religion. In tenth grade History class I spent an hour debating half the class alone. And I won. Because I'm hardcore like that :P Just kidding. Really, I just feel that if I don't defend my beliefs, I admit in some way to the rest of the world that they don't mean anything.

I do get what you're saying, though. Tell someone they're wrong and you'll learn what they really believe - and if that belief is strong at all.

2007-08-28 [Nazarath.93]: Well satanism is a lifestyle, that fills the void in one's life called "Religion" there is no need to defend it to people who do not know of it. There are hundreds of satanists that will never say they are satanists because it may harm them. The satanic religion cannot be harmed because it is a institution of the self, so long as there is one satanist then the satanic message is defended. So standing up for satanism isnt necessary, since its a religion of the self the only persons satanic beliefs your challenging are your own, if you challenge them then your not a satanist, so your not attacking me. if that makes sense.

2007-08-28 [Nazarath.93]: Ok, I really want to stop talking about satanism here. This isnt a satanist page, nor for people to learn about satanism. besides I dont want anyone getting angry with me. So please any questions about satanism, ask me in the form of a personal message, and I will tell you how to answer them.

2007-08-28 [there's a bluebird in my heart]: Yeah, we got a bit off topic, here. Oops :)

2007-08-28 [Nazarath.93]: yeah...

2007-09-05 [thoughtfox]: please do feel free to debate candidly, provided you back up your words. This is a page for debate.

2007-09-05 [thoughtfox]: As for the Bible, I do think it is important to distinguish religion (including the bible) from belief in God. Naturally, most religions do believe in God, but in different forms: Buddhism and Taoism portrayed God in a manner that was excluded by the definition in my Philosophy class. But one can also believe in God without religion. It is possible to deny every single word of the Bible and still believe in God.

2007-09-05 [Nazarath.93]: Ok good, I didnt want to float off subject and have someone get mad at me.

2007-09-06 [there's a bluebird in my heart]: I agree with thoughtfox about the Bible. God is very subjective. An individual's experience with God cannot be defined by society (or an institution - the Church, especially a young, corrupt Church). I don't consider myself religious, merely spiritual. Yes, many people say that, but most of them are fools.

2007-09-06 [Nazarath.93]: I call that personalizing a deity, in the mind of a atheist thats the most logical point of view.

2007-09-06 [there's a bluebird in my heart]: No, I don't decide how God is, but the way I experience Him is different for me than it is for the lady down the street. Because I am fundamentally different from the lady down the street and God knows this. God knows that I don't like the whole ritualistic, empty, pointless "mass" thing, and that someone else telling me what and how to believe is meaningless to me. My God is the same God of the Bible, but I see him most in sunsets, rain, children, birth, growth, love.

I once heard a quote - I can't remember who said it - but he/she was, in my opinion, totally right. "True religion is nothing more than a relationship with God."

Unfortunately, a personal relationship with God has been so overpowered by the rituals of the Church, so most people see "religion" as what you call yourself and whether you go to mass once a week to sit/stand/kneel/sit/stand/kneel/eat bread/kneel/sit/stand to be "saved."

2007-09-06 [Nazarath.93]: thats great and all. But through the eyes of an atheist your god isnt presenting himself to you and you are deciding how he is based on how you want him to be. If he were real then yes, you would be right.
That will always be my opinion, until your god proves himself right.

2007-09-06 [there's a bluebird in my heart]: My opinion will always be that he has given enough proof, if only we choose to see it. Why should our creator prove himselves to us? Why do we demand proof in order to believe? That sort of cuts out the faith and belief part.

2007-09-06 [Nazarath.93]: My opinion is that you choose to see it as proof, while there are many many things that help deny his existence. Why should we need faith?

2007-09-06 [thoughtfox]: There's actually no real evidence either way, I don't think. The arguments against God have as many flaws as arguments for God. What things would you say deny God's existence, Nazarath?